as anybody. the idea we bring in the innocent essential students and graham marsh them by time they leave it is part of the book but mark -- our students come from 40 countries and they are way to the left and if anything i would not say they are centrist but more respectful of the process of objectivity that both my as those -- a sociologists colleagues have demonstrated tonight. . .

to call attention to the plight of people usually a category they themselves belong to. and so that may be off you're point but it's worth saying that the whole hypophysis that students are to the right of the faculty particularly these days may not be true that the concerted conservative theory depends on that. >> this final question today on the relationship of academics to the democratic or republican

party and liberalism and conservatism depends very much on our particular way in which parties and ideologies have devolved over the last several decades. as a, when nick was saying that they are better for the universities, nelson rockefeller extended it enormously in the state of new jersey tom kean and christy were very good for higher education. it's not true all republicans have higher education. it happens today that the republican party has kind of set itself against the academic world. and if you get the data on the views of science, they're has been a sharp shift among the conservatives towards a more hostility toward science but

these are particular conditions today. they don't have to exist forever. they could change again so we shouldn't just take this house being in transit and inevitable. >> again, great questions. thank you. maybe i will just conclude with responding to the professor liberal point, but perhaps in a kind of broad way. this is something my interviewee's themselves voice. i have to say that the data are pretty convincing on this. 50 to 60% on the left and on a wide range of political and social attitudes to the left not only of the american public but the public with higher

education. and that's a lot. the public is not that liberal. in terms of the substance and the political education substance i don't mean to say that they are liberal but they are more liberal with respect to be local variation. i think it's time that we own in this and folks in high your education acknowledge the liberalism because the right knows it and i think our inability to open it will make a strong case for why higher education continues to exist in the country in which there's a conservative presence and continue to exist in something in the current form we make the case for that. we need to make a strong case that most professors on the

left, social science and natural science as well and we need to make a case that doesn't she our findings that we can do research which is objective and balanced and natural. it shapes bipartisan interest and part of what drives the conservative skepticism that paul spoke of is a sense that the institution of science has been affected by political values. i think we can make the case on all of those areas. higher education doesn't need to take away the political realm. so i think the ek knowledge of the actual politics of professors can do nothing but help us and i certainly hope that will draw attention to that and the problems that higher

education is facing at least some of which with perceptions of academics. clearly this is in the last education. kind of conversation fine book to read on behalf

of my colleagues of the institute for public knowledge and public books thank you for being here. neil, we look forward to the next book now. coming up next on book tv come "after words" with guest host ariel cohen, eurasian studies of the foundation. this week diana west and her new book, "american betrayal" appeared in a she argues the u.s. government has been marching toward socialism and capitulating to communism since the 1940's abandoning america's core ideas on the process. this program is about an hour.

>> host: in 1934 william came to washington. can you tell us why did he come, what was his message and what happened to him? >> guest: he is the score and figure in our history. he was a school superintendent from indiana and he had connections to some of the early former secretary who worked for him in the education capacity of new york. he came to visit and see what is going on in this new deal that has come in with roosevelt when he was inaugurated in 1933. right across the river in northern virginia at which he testified, came to washington to testify he heard the revolution being planned and new deals, a junior level come amid level people talking about with the

big new deal planned to do. essentially to have faced soviet style revolution, it planned economy. roosevelt wasn't going to be suitable to this they were going to have to get rid of them. >> host: who did they compare him to? >> guest: the original leader of the revolution who did not last. >> host: tiberi 28, 1917 what happened to him? >> guest: he was quickly dispatched. what we have with william is a voice inside who heard the plans of the radicals and he started writing letters what do you do with information like? >> host: if he goes to the congress and testifies. >> guest: they took his letter and read it into the congressional record and all hell broke loose in washington. the press was covering it and

became a kind of 247 news style and eventually he came to testify. what happened to him was an american show trial he was put up before the dominated special committees, three democrats, to republicans and he was well lit into oblivion. i found it quite fascinating because that same year another man came to washington in 1934 and his name was whitaker chambers, the most famous of the american ex-communist to lead the party on the military. he came to washington to organize the sales in the government. they had a very compact agriculture department but they knew they had to get into the mainlined important influential

department. >> but at some point he becomes disillusioned, walks out and starts naming names. >> guest: discussing the motivation and the irony for me is that it was 14 years later that would occur chambers testified in the same hearing room on capitol hill and had gone into oblivion and died really of a broken heart and what fascinated also is that one of the democrats on that select committee john jay o'connor from new york actually confessed after william haddad he confessed that he railroaded him and begged forgiveness and he was cast into oblivion and that isn't a well known part of the story. >> what strikes me as president is the insight he has. he says at some point the

radical new deal which turns out more members of the communist party or heavy-duty sympathizers or fellow travelers for someone to say in some cases useful idiots. they wanted a clean slate to destroy the existing american society and build something new and that something new would be centrally planned socialist economy and it rang a bell. i went and i looked at the international some doubles a state income of the soviet union until 1934 and the international said let us make a clean slate the world is about to change its

foundation let us be all. and have they done anything other than work, but work had created ordering may give it back the people want only their dues. i am not saying that this is exactly like you have not done it alone, but it is certainly playing a very destructive and we saw what happened at the same time in a stalinist russia the mass executions. how come in 1933 this was going on from the so-called --

>> guest: >> host: boris yeltsin's father gets exiled and that made a mark on the attitude and many others repressed. if the american society is continuing along the course of not soviet-style socialism but the state involvement in economic management. >> guest: the former representative of texas said that a new deal functioned as a communist front functioned with many innocent people that have no idea that they are

participating in the implementation of the policy and the soviet union. and so whenyot the number of agents that got into the government particularly in those years directing policy and the government it does function as you would see in the 1930's in spain and france this was the popular front that was encouraged. it included many parties. >> he didn't call himself a socialist. >> the point is it isn't just local domestic, it is members of communist entities on the orders that might come from moscow. >> host: who were the two most outstanding leaders or agents that we know about.

in the u.s. government and then were exposed as the soviet [inaudible] >> guest: before i get to the other i think it's important to note when whitaker chambers came to washington to blow the whistle whitaker chambers is coming to organize the state department and the agent in that cell who met on the day of a rifle with alger hiss. >> host: i also ask, too -- >> guest: he was no means alone. another agent in the white house called an administrative assistant under roosevelt to amplify his power.

they dominated the different portfolios with china. he was very instrumental in the loss of china and this is something we know on the record. so there were many others. there were just some that were marxist, they were not necessarily identified as agents he was doing a lot of the economic policy and he did want a soviet-style economy government. >> host: so did harry dexter as it turned out on the recent research at the time. cam across as a new dealer but an economist that was in the tradition a counterpart in the creation of the post world war

ii global financial architecture. it's incredible, it's mind-boggling. >> guest: they still have not been identified but we know for a fact there was something around 500 agents that have been identified by the various archives that have come out. >> what is the key intercept that had this identification of 500. >> guest: there are several archives. monona is an archive that is intercepted in the cabling going between the soviet embassy's and consulates back to russia and moscow. they start making copies and the idea was actually to break the code and find out what our

soviet allies really wanted so that we could be better allies and when they started working on these cables, the started understanding that the soviet union was attempting essentially to overthrow the country, wreaking havoc infiltrated the was a very painstaking work to identify. >> host: it took them years. >> guest: now i believe that -- he was identified through fbi but here's laughing. along the way, early on in the years to follow, inside of the government there is knowledge of the tremendous spotting that was going on while outside of the government they have a civil war

over whether there was any soviet penetration. the period of the 1950's is what people refer back to. there were many other senators and congressmen trying to get a handle on what is happening. >> host: nixon launched his career. >> guest: but the point is the government i believe is complicity in the soviet conspiracy because who benefits from keeping this information secret. they are part of these networks. there are points at which there is knowledge and understanding and the example of harry truman when you get to the chamber

hearings alger hiss and whitaker chambers. the country was divided over whether he could be a spy. he was the main line aristocratic carnegie institution state department that's about all he really lost. >> but he was very instrumental so we are witnessing to people creating the post world war ii global architecture of the diplomatic side and the imf and the international monetary fund on the other side and what was mind-boggling when i read the book about harry dexter white is

that the man who created that architecture almost became the first imf international monetary fund. president american nominated president. that is what dexter white, the soviet spy who presented a very respectable friend, but in fact it was a staunch marxist. >> guest: but was more than that to the bill was instrumental in bringing the united states and japan to war. this is the incredible thing. he was the deputy to henry morgan ball, the treasury of the -- secretary of the treasury. morgan fall wasn't a particularly skillful treasury secretary economist. he relied heavily which accounted for more than it should have.

one of his actual -- this is something that came out in the 90's is that the soviets didn't want to pan at the time being very aggressive in the pacific and eastern area and they wanted -- >> host: because the expected to end up in a war with germany. the agent came to washington. he gave him language to insert into the cable flow to the united states and japan and the diplomats at that time were working very hard to reach the notice. >> host: what was the time frame? >> guest: 1981. the run-up to perlo harbour and indeed that language went into what was considered by japan an

ultimatum for the war at the end of november. >> host: but even before that, by trying to cut the supplies on the materials. >> guest: they were still trying to prevent this. so you had this also going on in tokyo come a very prized soviet agents working with the tokyo political situation and promoting the war party as opposed to the peace party. so you had a brilliant soviet influence operation on the continent's. >> guest: its intelligence. i used the word influence but it's a part of espionage most people never think about and it's actually the more important and even dangerous aspect. it is not simply stealing a little secret here and -- >> host: wearing a blond wig and you know what i'm referring

to. >> guest: right. but he drops the word and promotes a certain policy. >> do you think that our intelligence and counterintelligence tradition is attuned to identify research and intercept the operations as opposed to a guy or a woman that goes with a little camera with the aircraft or steal some day the? >> guest: it was undetected. i'm sure it isn't detected today

>> entering world war ii if there is a pact of a stalin hitler but they literally draw the line on the map they get to the baltic states, they get probably a third of poland, little pieces of romania and germany gets more. poland, the lands, slovakia and romania becomes the satellite so i think they made a huge mistake because they have a buffer between himself and hitler and now there is no buffer and they are facing each other.

they push against the u.s. to end up in the war with japan. we could spend the rest of the program describing it but i want to move on. how would you describe the role of the existing penetration in washington and directing and this brings aid to the soviet union before december 7, 41. the soviets are fighting with the nazis so the economic effort. what is going on? >> in major soviet influence is going on that has won in the history books that explain eight

to britain and the soviet union was a massive supply line. >> what are we sending -- >> guest: everything you could imagine from dresses, aircraft, everything. this is a very important thing when gorbachev first came out i found this amazing and in some ways this led me to my research half. he denied that the united states had supplied the soviet union during world war ii. this is to george shultz, secretary of state, and this is very startling to everyone following this. i started looking into that because i knew it was wrong and

i discovered gorbachev may or may not have known the truth. there is so much information you don't know if he is putting it out. what we have discovered by piecing together the different expos days is that there was by armand hammer who'd been a soviet asset and no doubt about it. he started pushing this notion of supply, wasn't really going anywhere and at that time was roosevelts co-president some people called him -- at his side he lived there for over three years. in the end roosevelt was open

but was hush hush to the rest of the world. harry dexter white had the most in american history and this became the means of expanding the soviet union because they're became half a million dodge and chevy trucks. >> host: the cobra fighter planes and jeeves -- jeeps. >> guest: he was interviewed by life magazine and he said he doesn't know how the army could have gotten in without the dodge trucks and studebaker trucks. rolling through eastern europe.

>> it is a matter of the quarter banking. put yourself in his shoes. what is going on here. hitler who came to dominate all of europe -- we haven't talked about the pacific war. >> host: roosevelt was dead set on destroying hitler before the war with japan even started. for roosevelt, the central gravity on the russian front so he is going and doing a -- let me put one thing out there what

he needed to do to believe hitler what happened to the policy is that is what the american people believed that in the history as we know it. however, if dispatching hitler were the main event that would have happened earlier that i found in my research what became the american goal is the stipulations of the union. the relationship in the soviet union was now more important than ending the war and what i found is that there were many opportunities to have at least shifted in a very important way. there is an incredible -- none of us knew anything about this. there was an actual nazi german resistance that went as high as the intelligence chief it went into a church and businessad

there was a lot of activity of different groups working. we didn't realize them. one important flaw in soviet washington's highest they were anti-communist. they always made the deal we will hand over the government to you and we will fight and surrender and all we ask is that you keep russia from coming into the east. this was always the deal but it gets to the point when you look at the surrender which was another prolonging of the war measured by the morgan fall plan is made the germans fight longer but any number of steps that kept them open to the point russia would move and roosevelt wanted more than anything to stop hitler and he had all the soviet infiltration in the white house in the state department it

was his relationship that became american policy. >> host: by understand that, but everything -- something in world war ii and no credible author says they had a critical mass and to the 20th of july -- the german war effort is being rolled out both from the east and the russians soviets this was post normandy so it took until the 20th of july.

there's plenty of evidence the russians are horrified since about 42-43 that they will reach out to some elements in germany and leave the germans to fight -- >> guest: or to fight with the germans. so the attempt to pursue a policy of something less than unconditional surrender. that was 1918 and it led to germany that came back quickly, 20 years started to fight another war. they didn't want that outcome.

>> guest: when you say they didn't want unconditional surrender. >> host: they can to the conclusion after the experience of world war i but to leave the machine intact in any way is not a good idea in the interest of the united states -- >> guest: the unconditional surrender policy was by no means greeted happily by the military in the u.s. and even the secretary of state and other. it's another situation where you've ended up creating more resistance and indeed more reliance on the government for german citizens and it ended up with a situation that it became very clear there's any number of points at which there were movements to bring down germany

that got nowhere. for example in 42 it was a prominent official came across an intersect by the government and how incredibly all of things or internally but they didn't think they could win a war or that anything probably would come of this terrible harvick war and he wanted to publicize it because he felt it would be such a pressure for the germans that they would be very significant blow in the information war and he was stopped from doing that and the idea was that this might prevent a second front in the invasion and this whole thing began to turn on the prolonging of the war itself hallett had to continue until you got thrown out of russia and indeed roosevelt -- he moves into

europe. >> host: we have to take a break so we will be back. >> host: so it sounds like he is a key figure. what else is he giving? >> guest: harry hopkins is the greatest fun song ballan that we ever heard about because one of the amazing things is how he disappeared from our history books. he died in january 1946 and that is the last we heard of him. how convenient. a lot of these people did that. he actually ran much of american

foreign policy through roosevelt he had a special bond a and roosevelt relied on him. to give you an idea when winston churchill came in december 1941 for the first war conference that went on for weeks, harry hopkins, franklin roosevelt and winston churchill eight breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. this was a tight symbiotic presidency and he was often called the co-president. i've studied harry hopkins and he's a controversial figure post-soviet because we have new information about him. i do believe he was a conscious soviet aspect. that doesn't mean he wasn't a member of the communist party getting signals transmitted. i don't mean acting on that sort of fashion that he was an agent

of influence. harry hopkins was source 14. my research of edward mark, the historian who did work i've read his thesis on this it is a possibility that the agent was one of the members between the three. roosevelt, churchill and agent 19 and which discussions for the date of the normandy invasion cannot. a crucial information for stalin but there's more to it than that harry hopkins and about the spring of 1943 which is a little earlier than the agent 19 incident was told by jay edgar hoover the verdict of the in a

confidential letter -- because hopkins was the gatekeeper, that the fbi had been listening on the third top diplomat in washington delivering money and information to an unknown agent of the communist party in brooklyn which is where a lot of the analysis and expiration into atomic energy and the bomb and with the message was is giving him money and instructions to infiltrate the industry's and the nuclear effort. he identifies the diplomats and in fact probably the most senior member of the soviet secret

service in america at the time it was the means by which they spread out and infiltrated the communist parties to the leftist organization. >> so what happened was hopkins gets this incredible letter that i have in my book and what does he do with that information? he goes to the embassy and tells them the fbi is listening in on their infiltration and this is so important it is the first indication that the fbi received the soviets were trying to infiltrate the atomic program.

the thing that is significant about that is that we only find out by accident through other soviet archive which was copied it down node of the agent that was spirited in the country when he fled and came out in the 90's also with a couple archives. this incident is only known to us through the soviets. >> host: at the time he didn't know that harry went to the embassy. >> guest: nobody knew. we only found out in the 90's. >> host: [inaudible] >> guest: but the other hopkins is kn instrumental

shifting, telling the minister held to talk to the president in terms of how to persuade him to do what stalin once which is to invade france. they never wanted the american and british armies in europe coming thru to italy which churchill wanted and roosevelt made a military decision himself. it's noted in the biography this is one of the few decisions he made to help the british in northern africa where they suffered a massive defeat and the second start he was calling for to take pressure off in germany was not africa but it's interesting when you go back and see these headlines stalin says

the invasion is nice but not second front. it was about a ninth front by that time france comes along. it was extraordinary in he was the american booster of normandy and stalin was the leading non-american booster. churchill didn't want it. >> host: there was a delay from 42 to 44. >> guest: he wanted to come up in the middle and be close to germany. >> host: and also maybe save parts. as we know actually militarily because of the mountains and in the middle than manage to stop the 43 advance. >> guest: it was quite successful actually been in june of 1944 which is another date we don't celebrate. a lot of this was lost. why don't we celebrate that?

on the forgotten front why was it called that? it didn't serve stalin. italy was seen by eisenhower, the strategic air command, general scott, other military figures as a fantastic place to launch the air strikes to germany. this was the opposite of what stalin wanted and the interesting thing was churchill was content to continue working in the baltics and so on but the actual killer when stalin insisted on the southern france invasion that was later on that data all of the allied troops in the middle and so that was over

and one of the leaders of the american forces in italy was the biggest. you could get stuck in switzerland if you actually continued. >> host: that's what i'm thinking. in the peninsula. there are many military leaders that wanted to do exactly that. >> host: and wanted to ask on the big plume that is a nuclear program. it didn't occur to anybody that putting the police in charge of the nuclear program had to

suggest it's not about production and physics it is also about espionage. so very clearly, the austal once the five henchmen is in charge of the information and it's coming through a huge pipeline from the americans. tell us about that. as the mecca that is one of the great untold stories we don't know and this comes from testimony by an american veteran of world war i who reenlisted in the came back to essentially run the pipeline and everything that he could carry in the united states to the soviet union. his name was major jordan. he discovered that strange

things were going on in that pipeline. he was very disturbed by the kind of equipment and at one time he opened up the suitcase to see what was going through and he discovered all kinds of sensitive military plans, all kinds of maps and other things. >> host: is it something alleged that the united states was sending? >> guest: he thought someone should take a look so he went to washington to get someone out there but nothing happened. the most important thing that did happen, he didn't realize it until after the soviet union exploded their own bomb, and he realized that he had actually expedited a scientific amount of ingredients including the piping

and including uranium. the thing about it is this was at a time when the general who is in charge of manhattan new the soviets were trying to spy and had actually placed an embargo on all sensitive ingredients including uranium. no american uranium could go to the soviet union to get out of the country, period. but harry did is according to jordan, he found a way to canada and he called the jordan and the base and he told him there was a shipment coming through. there wasn't going to be on the books and he was to do his best and he would know about it because it was coming from a canadian courier. sure enough, they had no doubt,

he had no suspicion that the time. yes, of course he was the big man in his world said he did exactly that. once the secret became clear he realized he had been part of it and he testified. he was attacked mercilessly but i think we can talk about this format. one was he had made five claims having to do with a courier and the shipping builds and so on at various points. four of the five were able to be documented and he was correct. the fifth one was the phone call harry hopkins papers were organized by heineman is actually still living. the papers were organized for a

landmark biography that's mostly the biography of harry hopkins with robert charlatan who was a very famous talented writer of the middle of the last century involved in the white house and i've got mine noted. it becomes very clear he was the liaison of the scientist and roosevelt and churchill. when he can testify they had committed espionage supplying the embargo and other other things to the soviet. he didn't know about that. the editor of the papers went to

"newsweek" and said he doesn't know uranium from geranium and this was a way of trying to dismiss. but he was the point man on the entire project. he was interested and knew everything about it. he was done at this point. but this is what happened. his friends, his allies, his travelers. >> host: so rosenberg in the scheme of things guilty as charged. >> guest: it was in the white house but after that what is going on in the truman white house, eisenhower white house this is what happens it's starting to be translated and they are coming up with these

names with treason and then you have the very famous cases at the same time and it puts them in the truman white house that every time to cover it up and for the democrats because you have held roosevelt and truman in 1933 to 48 because this is a long period infiltration the biggest disaster in my view and you have at the end of a war of course you have them dominated and china. you have almost 20 years of new deals and they call it a fair deal. and it was always to suppress.

this continued under eisenhower. and i think what i started to see was that the complicity of american officials are present in terms of the soviet troezen fighting for the american treason became the dominant characteristic. >> host: it is as real list as they come. what is in the interest of covering it up? >> guest: i think that he was the first and foremost politician in 1943. he was one of the boosters of winston churchill's b57 european friends. he goes on at length in the state department papers how they will be all to do this, that and the other thing in the various

islands and it's a very striking commentary that he presented to all of the commanders in late 1943. in his memo they chewed him out for that or the kind of hopkins story at times it seems very clearly it is not in his memoir. he doesn't discuss this. he was a politician. the papers were not published until about 61 when it was all over so it's kind of interesting thing that there is another interesting thing. i think that eisenhower had the great crime against humanity that the with british committed and that would be the soviet nationals repatriation and there

is another one that is the abandonment of the american veterans of world war ii after the war. it's a horrible story. >> host: a lot of people care about -- >> guest: nobody knows. >> host: one of my projects were researched with a horrible story. >> guest: they covered it up and when you move into the 50's what he did is about a day after -- there was the american general negotiating for them in moscow and they both had the figures of the 15 to 20,000 americans in the soviet held

territory and they all were just lost and written off and you finally get a little stories here and there but it is an monona. >> host: did any of them survive or -- so, we are talking about one to 2 million russians including -- >> guest: there were a lot of people who they lifted the revolution and they were all swept away. eisenhower was strictly approached in not sending back and number of 800,000 of the 2 million to go back to the soviet union and it was essentially we gave backing anti-communist army and there

was never any thought in this administration in the golden circle of the administration and before the germans invaded the soviet union on june 21st there was a very anti-communist state department official and most people there jewels are dropping. but they think about until roosevelt approaches them. harry hopkins helped. henderson wrote this paper actually planning for when stalin would fall because the debate could they expected a german attack and how we shouldn't recognize in order to make way for a non-citizen government after the war. when i wrote that i just thought i'd never even thought of that pity and you realize how conditioned we all have been to the soviet matters, to the

american -- we haven't even imagine a world without stalin in our history books. was the unthinkable thing. and this is what i discovered in the research is that we have all these conditions. the soviet occupation of washington, they were so densely and strategically placed they were able to control the information. the office of information that was set up to control information during the war was riddled with communism. how do you ever learn anything? you can't. so this is when i came after sort of shock after shock that's why the book is called american betrayal because i felt so betrayed by this whole history. ..